By poker_boy | 8 Comments
Last updated: Saturday, March 12, 2011 | 122 Views Tags: playing poker, poker collusion, poker sites, poker table, sophisticated plan, spade, spades, terms poker, woul
Another poker question has come in this week. Let’s tackle it straight away:
Obviously, simply knowing the cards one other player has is a huge advantage at the poker table. You can use this information to decide when to fold if this player has you beat. You can also use the information to help to calculate your outs. For example, letâs say you have two Spades and two show up on the flop. Normally you would calculate the number of spades left in the deck at nine. Now if you know another player has two spades also this decreases the number available in the deck to seven. Letâs say the other player only has one Spade, but it is the Ace. All of a sudden, if you make a flush and are holding the King, you know you are holding the high flush and can bet without worrying about another player holding the Ace.
While the example above is considered collusion, it is a very basic form. Players working together to come up with a more sophisticated plan are able to take much more money away from the other players at the table. Last night, while playing at a $2/$4 no-limit table, I believe there were two people at the table I was playing at using just such a scheme. They were sitting at opposite sides of the table and the first would raise $2 before the flop. A couple other players would call this bet and the other player would again raise $2 again. The other would then raise $2 again on his or her turn. If you have already paid $4 to see the flop you are going to go ahead and pay $6 or $8, even with a moderate hand. You may not have paid $8 to stay in the hand originally, but the two players in collusion have made you do so. On the last bet one or the other would make a large $50 bet forcing players with moderate hands who have just contributed $8 to fold. They would not do this often; only when one or the other had a very good hand so calling the large bet was always a bad decision.
All you can do in this case is report the players (and I did). I also asked the representative I contacted for his name and to keep me updated on what happens with the players. If the site is dedicated to stopping this kind of cheating they should be able to go back over hand histories and find other instances. People generally cannot help themselves when they find an easy way to make money so they tend to use these schemes on a regular basis. I have not seen any sites that prosecute players for collusion. They simply kick the players off of the site. The players can then move to any of the other 50 online poker sites out there. Just be careful as a player and be sure to report any suspected instances of collusion. Usually the schemes are obvious if you are observant.
What do you think of this example? Would it stop you from playing online poker? I like playing at 2/4 NL online.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but it is more difficult to get away with than you think.
Since the site has access to all hole cards it is easy, upon examination, to determine whether collusion actually took place.
I assume the sites have software which notices consistently odd plays, (such as the play in your example, assuming one of the players did not have a premium hand, or plays which only make sense if you have access to somebody else’s hole card data).
I think (although I’m not certain) that the software pays particular attention when two or more players consistently play at the same software.
And if this software does not pick up on collusion then it only take one player to report suspected collusion, and a manual inspection will take place. I imagine it is *very* difficult to avoid detection once somebody makes a manual inspection of your complete hand history.
From the Pokerstars site:
"While on one hand it is easier to pass information between colluding players in online poker than it is in brick & mortar rooms, it is much more difficult to avoid eventual detection, as the cards for all players can be examined after the play.
No matter how sophisticated the collusion is, it must involve a play of a hand that would not be played that way without collusion. Our detection methods are aimed to catch unusual play patterns and warn the security personnel, who will then make a thorough manual investigation. We will also investigate all players’ reports about suspected collusion."
Like I said, I don’t doubt that collusion does take place, but I do not consider it enough of an issue to stop me playing online.
Mike Smith
March 12, 2011
This is a very interesting subject. I believe there is collusion happening on a major level , maybe not on all the poker sites but most of them.
How would they monitor and enforce it. I have never heard of someone being picked out for collusion .
It’s a scary subject thus I mainly play tournaments so it cant happen.
March 12, 2011
The short answer is yes. Collusion is not conducive to a good game and is at the end of the day cheating.
The comfort that i do have in this regard is that if you as a play suspect that there is collusion at your table you can report the suspicious behaviors to the poker room operator. They will then be obliged to investigate and most poker rooms have a department dedicated to weeding out these types of players.
Of course there will be players colluding in new ways, and in ways that can not be traced, which means that there is always the risk. But then if i was playing for an amount of money large enough that collusion becomes a factor, I would personally go play at a cash game or casino where I could be sure that the game play is not rigged.
March 12, 2011
Yeah, it happens enough and i have become aware of the very situation you have described. I have reported 3 people one time already. It is not very common, i have played thousands of hands and only been sure of colluding players once. I will not stop playing online poker because of a few cheaters, I am more worried about bots then collusion between players. I have run into far more bots the colluding players, or at least i think. I do know one way PokerStars has tried to tackle this situation is though monitoring the I.P. addressing of real money players. I have heard of people being e-mailed because there are multiple real money players to 1 I.P. address.
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Additional, what poker site are you on?
March 12, 2011
I think it is much harder to make money from colluding in poker than people think. I don’t believe it gives these players a huge advantage and I find it is rather easy to pick up on the obvious colluders. It is not like this is not a problem in live poker either. In a live game people can make signals to relay information to their partner and collude that way. Personally, I am not too concerned about it. Most of these people are idiots who don’t know what they are doing in the first place.
March 12, 2011
Yes, definitely. Online cash games where people decide where they sit are full of collusion IMO. From playing thousands of hands I’ve seen too many ridiculous plays. The only thing I can recommend is stick to MTT’s since seating is random. Otherwise try and keep notes on players if you think they are suspicious and find patterns such as the same players at the same tables at the same time always.
March 12, 2011
2/4 NL is my favorite game too. I don’t always have the steak for it, but when I do I really enjoy it. I like playing 2/4 NL heads up on Full Tilt.
March 12, 2011
Collusion gives you a very small edge and is more trouble than it’s worth. In your above example, what if one of the other players has AA? Now, the collusion players are losing twice the money and the player with AA will be thinking "thanks for colluding". So no i am not concerned about it.
March 12, 2011
I’m not really afraid of collusion. Usually players who collude aren’t very intelligent. Like say you’re a very good player the edge you gain from colluding with another player doesn’t even offset what you make if you simply played more tables instead of wasting a lot of your brains resources on communicate with a partner about how to optimally cheat ppl out of money.
The next problem is you need a large number of accounts on the same site. You may think they can just get caught and move onto another site but there’s only a dozen or so sites. Sure, there’s a lot more when you count the skins but if you get banned on Ultimate Bet they probably aren’t going to let you play when you try to sign up for a new account at Absolute Poker. Since colluding players have no idea when their account could be banned if they didn’t have a large number of accounts its a significant risk leaving any money in their account with the exception of when they play. It’s very difficult to get money in and out of the site nowadays though so there’s extra risk and wasted time doing that as well.
Additionally, the perceived edge their gaining isn’t that great. It doesn’t take that long for most players to adjust to what they’re doing. I would sometimes be slowplaying monster hands and cold call the first raiser knowing I would on average get a lot more value out of my hand this way. I’d also cold call a lot less because your implied odds post flop just aren’t as good. The third thing you can do is cold call then shove when it gets back around to you when they make another double min-raise. You could be strong or you could be weak but either way they’re facing a tough decision. All these adjustments are likely to be made by a great majority of players and suck for potential colluding villains.
If you want to avoid it altogether just start taking notes on players you expect collude and avoid them at the tables. Over 5+ years ago this is what a lot of limit players were doing on party poker. It got so bad party poker banned certain players from sitting with other ones. The major poker sites don’t just sit back and let players collude but sometimes it takes time and reports. By playing MTT’s or something like rush poker you avoid collusion for the most part altogether. So, it’s not like you don’t have a lot of options.